Talk:Mass Effect: Retribution
Why does the cover say prequel? Prequel to ME2, maybe, prequel to ME3, most definitely, but to ME, uhhhh.... no.--Xaero Dumort 00:33, January 13, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, it is confusing. It says "prequel to the award-winning game by BioWare", and I suppose ME2 has won some awards already? Enough to describe it as award-winning? Huh. --Tullis 01:56, January 13, 2010 (UTC) Reapers' Secrets Well, the summary implies that this novel will focus primarily upon expanding on the Reapers. I'm hoping this is not the case, but I can't see them revealing too much in a novel, especially since this is the main story focus of the ME universe and we have to wait for ME3, still. What kind of 'secrets' do you think will actually be able to be answered by implanting Grayson with Reaper tech? --LBCCCP 03:57, February 19, 2010 (UTC) :Implanting Grayson with some Reaper tech makes sense, and I can see part of the Illusive Man's reasoning as maybe Grayson is his Shepard insurance policy? Shepard gets out of hand, send this biotic god he just made after him.--Xaero Dumort 20:15, March 8, 2010 (UTC) What I don't understand in all this is; wasn't the point of the epilogue in Ascension that Grayson has all his bases covered and is pretty much unfindable? So how exactly would the Illusive Man get his hands on the guy? Am I the only one questioning this? O.o 04:39, March 11, 2010 (UTC) :How could the Illusive Man do even a tenth of the things we've seen him do? If he can thwart an attempt by the Collectors to abduct enough humans to build a Human-Reaper, I'm fairly certain he could manage to track down Paul Grayson. The Illusive Man knows pretty much everything about him, and Grayson is a drug addict, which could only make finding him easier. SpartHawg948 04:52, March 11, 2010 (UTC) ::The Illusive Man is a very resourceful man. He clearly has billions of credits to move around and a vast information network in order to acquire what he wants. As SpaceHawg already noted, we've already seen incredible feats from him such as bringing someone back from the DEAD and constructing his own Normandy, locating the likes of Grayson isn't out of the question. He was already able to give you several dossiers and locations for individuals spanning hundreds of planets and stars. --The Illusive Man 05:18, March 11, 2010 (UTC) :SpaceHawg? Now there's one I haven't heard yet! I can't even say I'm annoyed, like when people call me SparHawg or SpartoHawg. SpaceHawg... I kinda like that! :) SpartHawg948 05:25, March 11, 2010 (UTC) ::D'oh! I made sure I didn't type Dawg instead of Hawg too. Clearly I buggered that one up regardless. I can read, I swear! :p --The Illusive Man 05:40, March 11, 2010 (UTC) :SpaceDawg, eh? Hmmm... Very nice! :) SpartHawg948 06:29, March 11, 2010 (UTC) Following one of ME2s endings.... So... is this book going off of the "Renegade' ending where Shep. gives the Collector base to TIM? how else does he get this technology to make a Grayson-Reaper-Cyborg?--RexGodwin 19:12, March 12, 2010 (UTC) :It doesn't say anything about the IM using the Collector base only Reaper technology. And since Reaper technology was used in the creation of EDI, then it is highly possible that the technology did not come from the Collector base but from Sovereign or the other Reaper. -- (Lone Hunter 19:55, March 12, 2010 (UTC)) ::And let's not forget the Derelict Reaper which Cerberus were investigating for who knows how long. --silverstrike 19:58, March 12, 2010 (UTC) It's been policy in the books so far to be vague about which ending/decisions Shepard made in the games (as obviously nothing is 'canon'). So in Ascension, for example, it said that both Udina and Anderson were both candidates for the Council membership. As Lone Hunter and silverstrike said, TIM had plenty of opportunities to scavenge Reaper technology in the 2 years or so since Sovereign's defeat. For all we know, using Grayson as a test subject is just the first part of a plan to assemble an unbeatable Reaper/Human hybrid army of Cerberus operatives that can assure human dominance in the galaxy. It's likely that neither ending of the game will be mentioned; and Retribution will just focus on a small cast of other characters (e.g. Grayson, perhaps Kahlee Sanders?). Bronzey 02:10, April 2, 2010 (UTC) New publisher synopsis In case anyone is wondering where the new synopsis came from, it's from Amazon via the Random House website (publisher): http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780345520722 Bronzey 07:57, April 4, 2010 (UTC) Anderson's Role Judging by the new synopsis, Anderson will have at least a modest role in Retribution. How are they going to avoid referencing whether he is an Admiral with the Alliance or the human representative on the Council? I have a great deal of confidence in Karphyshyn and his ability to avoid setting a canon for the game, but this seems like it would be a diificult detail to deal with. The only thing I can think of is that something may happen to Anderson, so that he is no longer associated with either body. What do you guys think? : Just a heads up, try to sign your posts with four ~ symbols (i.e. write four of them after your comment). I think they'll reference it the same way they've handled canon throughout the book series - giving a vague outline that could fit either option. Probably something like "Anderson was busy with his new position", and leave it at that. Also, his role in Retribution could be tailored such that it would be possible to do it as both a Councilor or Admiral - I'm thinking giving general advice or enlisting Alliance help for Kahlee. As for him being dismissed or killed in the books, in my opinion this is extremely unlikely. It's been evident in the books so far that they add, but don't subtract to the game's storylines. If Anderson turned up unemployed, or even dead, in ME3, the majority of players who didn't read the books would be confused/outraged. Karpyshyn's role seems to be to write stories that engage with the main universe only at the periphery, referencing the games but not really involving them so much in the story. Bronzey 13:02, May 29, 2010 (UTC) Contradictions p. 53 Names Anderson "Councilor Udina's" aide, ignoring game choices and breaking with previous canon policy. p. 59 Refers to Executor Pallin as current C-Sec head despite references to "Executor Chellick" in Mass Effect 2. p. 80 Kahlee is explicitly unfamiliar with the Reapers ('This must have something to do with the Reapers,' Anderson said. Unfamiliar with the name, Kahlee asked, 'Who are the Reapers?' Anderson hesitated, as if he was gathering his thoughts. Or maybe wondering how much he could say. 'They're a species of massive, hyperintelligent starships trapped in the void of dark space. They wiped out the Protheans fifty thousand years ago. Now they're looking for a way to return so they can wipe out all intelligent organic life again.' Kahlee blinked in surprise. 'I've never heard anything remotely like that before in my life.'") despite discussing them with the quarian Admiralty Board in Mass Effect: Ascension, p. 294 ("'Have you ever heard of a species called the Reapers?' the first quarian wanted to know. Kahlee shook her head. 'There is word coming from the Citadel that Saren's flagship, Sovereign, was actually an advanced AI. It was alive; just one of an entire race of enormous, sentient ships called the Reapers.'") More to come later. 23:47, September 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Yikes. Nice spotting. I had heard of the first two (the first one regarding Udina/Anderson as Councilor has been discussed on Anderson's talk page, and emails have been sent to Karpyshyn seeking some clarification). As for Kahlee and the Reapers, the only explanation I can think of is that the author needed a way to explain the whole Reaper situation to new readers, and sorta forgot that Kahlee had already heard of them. It is a bit of a problem story-wise though. Bronzey 01:16, September 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Spart got an answer to those emails according to that thread. Karpyshyn declined to provide clarification. -- Commdor (Talk) 01:33, September 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::Yeah we already had a discussion on the whole "Udina as Councilor" thing. Spart sent and email to Karpyshyn and he did decline to provide clarification so maybe we'll have to wait until the next book or game for answers. However I have two theories. 1) Anderson stepped down after ME2 and Udina took over. Or 2) it was a slip up. I think the first is more plausible, given the events that happened during Mass Effect 2, but then I'm only speculating here. As to Pallin, there is Cut Content that showed he was supposed to die in the Battle of the Citadel, but it was removed for whatever reason. Also now that Retribution is set after ME2, he is apparently alive and well, so I guess that one stays cut. Miscommunication between writers perhaps? As to the third, maybe she did forget, but who can say for certain. Lancer1289 01:47, September 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::I know, I've seen that discussion. I'm just compiling a list of contradictions. I honestly think all of these were slip-ups (the Udina/Anderson thing is pretty blatant, unfortunately, the Chellick material isn't canon since it wasn't released, and the third point just seems to be a miscommunication somewhere along the line), but I don't put too much blame on Karpyshyn--I know it's not easy to crank out novel material under a deadline, and I'm mostly happy with his work anyway. This isn't criticism, just observation. 06:48, September 19, 2010 (UTC) I can't see any contradictions here, honestly. It now appears that the Udina/Anderson thing is BioWare establishing canon, similar to what was done with KOTOR (although in that case, it was the Lucas people who set the canon), not a contradiction. And the Chellick thing is quite easy to explain. In fact, I can come up with two plausible and non-contradictory explanations. Chellick could have been bumped up to a number two or number three spot, as "Vice Executor" or "Deputy Executor" or "Assistant Executor", in which case it would be reasonable to see a reporter shortening this to "Executor" (similar to how reporters generally call a general officer in the military "Admiral" or "General", even if they don't actually hold that rank, but instead a lower rank such as Brigadier General). It's like reporters calling a Deputy Director of some federal agency "Director ___", or an Undersecretary "Secretary ___". Or, another entirely plausible one that fits perfectly with the established facts. Pallin was Executor in ME. Chellick was Executor in ME2. Pallin was again Executor in Retribution. Why is open to interpretation and speculation (maybe the Council was peeved at Pallin after the attack in ME, named Chellick the new Executor, and he bombed, so they brought back Pallin. Maybe Executor is an elected position, similar to a sheriff, and that's why it's different at different times). Now, if Retribution and ME2 occurred simultaneously, I'd agree that it would be a contradiction. But they don't. One occurs after the other, negating the whole contradiction theory. SpartHawg948 07:03, September 19, 2010 (UTC) : If BioWare decides that the canon is that Udina was made Councilor, that's one thing. Even though it doesn't really matter, since Anderson resigns, it still seems to be a deviation from previous canon policy, which was to keep everything ambiguous. I honestly think that the Chellick/Pallin thing is an oversight. Yes, your explanations work, and yes, they are plausible, but the fact that the reader has to construct an explanation probably means that somewhere, something was missed or miscommunicated. All pretty minor things, but I thought I'd just collect them. 07:13, September 19, 2010 (UTC) I don't think the Chellick/Pallin thing is an oversight or requires the reader to construct any explanation, any more so than was required when we learned that in ME, Udina was the ambassador, and not Anita Goyle, who was the human ambassador in Revelation. Things change over time, after all, particularly in terms of who holds what office. SpartHawg948 07:20, September 19, 2010 (UTC) : I respectfully disagree, as I'm sure you could have guessed. If it's all the same to you, I'll continue making note of what I consider to be contradictions, although I have no intention of convincing you (or anyone else) that they are mistakes, or of including them in any articles. Like I said, this is just my own observation. 07:25, September 19, 2010 (UTC) Fair enough. And I must admit, upon further consideration, my Goyle/Udina analogy maybe wasn't really that great. Now, if Goyle was ambassador in Revelation, Udina in ME, and then Goyle again in either Galaxy or Ascension, sure. But that isn't the case, is it? Still and all, I personally don't see the contradictions, but that's just me. SpartHawg948 07:27, September 19, 2010 (UTC) Okay, we've all read Inquisition by now and it looks like Udina is indeed the canon. Seems like Pallin was also supposed to die one way or another, his death in Inquisition possibly being a way to rectify a earlier mistake in the game. At least, that's what things would be like if one user on the forums hadn't sent mail to Karpyshyn and actually got a responsehttp://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/129/index/5099185/3#5100179: apparently Retribution - and by extension Inquisition as well - only take place in a universe where Udina was chosen to be Councilor by Shepard. 17:31, October 28, 2010 (UTC) :And that is making my brain hurt, so Retribution and Inquisition only take place in a selected universe, really? I think that BioWare is well within its rights to set canon on somethings, and this is probably one of them. I know what the response says about no established canon, but I guess we'll have to wait and see what ME3 will hold in order to answer this question once and for all. Persoanlly I'm getting a headache just reading and thinking about this. Lancer1289 18:17, October 28, 2010 (UTC) :Addendum: I really don't think that either Inquisition or Retribution have any less canon than anything else at this point. Granted Karpyshyn says that certain things have to be taken for grated, but IHMO, taking the side that they only happen in a universe where Udina is on the Council, is really stretching it. Lancer1289 18:22, October 28, 2010 (UTC) ::That is extremely disappointing. Especially since I chose Anderson. I guess Retribution and Inquisition didn't happen for me then. Well that was a waste of time. All the things so far fans have complained about with BioWare, Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2 haven't bothered me at all, but this has made me genuinely mad (well, as mad as you can be over something so relatively trivial). There was so much potential to the franchise and having this big world that the player can manipulate, and by setting this canon in the non-interactive works they've just thrown all that out the window. Ugh. JakePT 05:27, October 29, 2010 (UTC) It's not impossible for them to "fix" this, though, as Walters is now in charge of the series: for all we know he could have Anderson explain how he stepped down or how he was forced to in the third game. Personally I'm hoping that the fact these two works only appear to happen in an Udina-chosen universe means that its Anderson-chosen counterpart will also get its own exclusive works, such as the upcoming Dietz novel, however naive that may be. 22:09, October 29, 2010 (UTC) I'm much more concerned on Kahlee's amnesia re: The Reapers, rather than why Udina is councillor. — Pepoluan 06:20, November 24, 2010 (UTC) The biggest issue here is why he had to establish Udina as the councillor even though there was no need to. They could easily have kept it vague, and it would even work as part of the story. Anderson could have said something alone the lines of "since I'm quitting, Udina will have to handle all the council work from now on" and it would have worked no matter which one you chose. The comic could easily have kept it just as vague. Even if you didn't choose Udina, he's still Anderson's advisor, which means it's fully believable that he would handle some of Anderson's work. That they went out of their way to establish a canon where none was needed is just stupid. As for Kahlee not remembering the Reapers, that is probably because the author simply forgot. Something of interest, though: does anyone else suspect that she's indoctrinated to some level after her conversation with Grayson near the end of the book? It's clear that she was affected at the time, but not whether it's permanent or not. They only talked for a short while, but we don't exactly have any reliable or accurate information on how indoctrination works.--Mehbah 20:15, December 13, 2010 (UTC) :Maybe that is something BioWare will explain in ME3. Anderson could have quit between the events of ME2 and Retrubution. As to Kahlee, I don't think so. Lancer1289 20:54, December 13, 2010 (UTC) ::I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure the book establishes that Anderson is Udina's advisor and that he quits that post during the book. It seems pretty pointless to quit from councillor post only to stay in a very similar post as the councillor's advisor. And about Kahlee, I do agree that it's unlikely that she's indoctrinated, but I'd certainly not make her part of a Reaper-studying project.--Mehbah 23:39, December 13, 2010 (UTC) Kai Leng's injured wrist - an inconsistency I was reading this novel when an error jumped out at me: Grayson's foot kicked the gun from his hand, striking with such force it shattered Kai Leng's wrist. But later on, when Kai Leng makes his escape, he uses both hands to swing along a set of handholds in the roof. How is this possible if one of his wrists is broken? It doesn't matter how good he is at blocking out pain, a broken wrist won't support the weight of his body, effectively rendering that hand useless for climbing! --Tilarta 01:04, May 8, 2011 (UTC) :Medi-gel? Somebody healed him? He healed himself somehow? Honestly not sure and it really doesn't do a good job of explaining it. Lancer1289 01:58, May 8, 2011 (UTC) I dismissed medigel for a few reasons, one, all his medigel was on the ship, two, he didn't have a combat suit that dispensed it and three, healing broken bones is beyond the capabilities of medigel (or at least, that's my assumption, since it only fixes problems that don't involve broken bones). --Tilarta 05:56, May 8, 2011 (UTC) :Fair point. Perhaps he just ignored the pain, but a shatter wrist, that's pushing it by a long shot. Lancer1289 06:14, May 8, 2011 (UTC) Just finished reading Retribution and, unfortunately, there's a perfectly solid explanation for all of the above: The book is just badly written. ( 02:16, January 29, 2013 (UTC)) Anderson stating Cerberus has been a terror organization for 30 years. Was Anderson saying it because he believe in it? or was Anderson saying it because he was covering up for the system alliance? ``Erezike~`